BXProject

[Vanny]

The welding comment is purely for encouragement to those shit scared of cutting chunks out of there own car. I'm well aware of the difference between fabrication and welding, its the fabrication side i'm more familiar with, i even have 2 zeus booklets, and i refer to them, one is next to me right now (wonderful little things).

I'll be glad when this job is over, i'll be much happier with my own ability and less scared about cocking up. Its a great mind easer knowing you lot are on hand to ridicule and take the piss

I've got a set of tin shears, eclipse jobies, brand new and sharp but i find them a bugger cutting through this 2mm plate. On the flip side i'm pretty handy with the grinder (though i seem to be down to just 4 of them at the moment), and have loads of 1mm discs to keep me going.

Like the idea of plasterboard, will give it a try, but i'm not to worried about the top layer of the bench, i'll just plane it down a bit once it gets battered. Should see if there are still some pieces of oak at the farm I dont usually struggle drawing on the mild steel benches at my uncles, 10mm sheet is probably a bit more than i need though.

I've got some magnets too, but there big and cumbersome. More for welding up box section i think. Where would i get tiny not super strong magnets from? Not that i can afford them mind!

[Bx Bandit]

Bloody 'ell looks like a pro job! Keep going mate! I like the idea of making the larger sections up first. My approach was more of remove rust - fit patch. But I had to get the bugger on the road pronto and had to dodge the rain.

[docchevron132]

a pure handskill and as such just requires practice.

You've just described my sex life.....

[Philhod]

at Doc!!

The bullnose snips I was referring to Vanny, Have curved rounded blades, but are around 18" long. Will cut 3 mm with a bit of effort, but are good for cutting curves as well. A trick to aid cutting, put one rein of the snips in the vice, put in your metal and tap the top rein with a soft hammer. I have a bench knife that cuts up to 6 mm in straight lines. I've got 2 other metalworkers bolted to the bench, one cuts and punches a 3 mm hole in bar up to 3 mm thk, the other will bend up to 4 mm using a pin press action. These are in machine mart and save time for very little outlay.

The magnets come in pairs, are like a 50 mm square cut in 1/2 at 45 degrees and about 10 mm thick. The last 2 I bought were £5, again from machine mart.

Bandito. If you make any patches up from several bits, weld them up off the job first then weld them in place, it's a lot easier and you can even paint within 1/2" of the final weld where you cant get at it after.
I have some small, 100 mm, mole grips for holding in position, that make life easier as well.

[Vanny]

If there any reason why i can't hamerite the under wheel arch and bits that can't be seen before adding say stone chip? Or should i be using 2pack?

[Bx Bandit]

If you mean the actual hammerite paint Yes, there is a reason you shouldn't do it! Hammerite is shite! It's quite brittle and prone to chipping. Granted you're putting stonechip on top but I just don't rate hammerite at all.

I'm not sure which area you mean exactly, but after I put two coats of primer, I put on the Under Body Sealant (which is actually made under the name Hammerite!)

Apply it with a brush and it goes on nice and thick. I've had no rust re-occur where I have used this stuff. It's fine in the wheel arch. It stays flexible and slightly sticky and is better than stonechip IMO but not good for sills where it may get on your clothes.

[docchevron132]

/\ WHS.
I always go zinc rich primer, red oxide primer, red oxide paint, couple of top coats of chassis clack (alkoid) and the good old under body seal, unless it's in the wheel arches in which case I slap some stoneguard on (three coats) before appyling some under body seal.
As Bandit says, the hammerite underbody seal is good as it stays flexible and to a certain extent has self healing properties..

[Philhod]

What they said, word for word

[mat_the_cat]

I've just started using Galvafroid, it's supposed to be used as a cold galvanising paint when you weld galvanised steel. I painted the seams on my van with it on one side early this year (after wire brushing the rust back to bare metal). On the other side I did the same to one of the seams but used U-Pol zinc rich primer (as an attempt at a scientific test) and so far the U-Pol primer is letting the rust back through, but still good on the Galvafroid side…
It's bloody expensive stuff though, and needs a good stir (regularly) as all the zinc dust sinks to the bottom of the tin.

[docchevron132]

yeah, ZINC 182 is the same, you really need to stir it endlessly.
U-Pol is shit mate, cheap nasty crap that seriousley ruins ones complexion...

[Philhod]

Yes it's what the trade use. If you are fitting railings round a building and welding as you go, you paint over the weld as soon as it's cool enuff....even if it's raining!!!

[Vanny]

Please dont hurt me;

Since 'Royal Fail' couldn't deliver rain to Wales i've given up waiting and took a trip to the getto, where halfords is, in the corner of a massive 'Nationwide Autocentre' formerly 'Apples' so you can imagine how dire it is, and i was not surprised to fork out £20 for this little lot



I thought i would fully weld up the wing panel, I had already (roughly) tacked it in place so needed to decided to weld the whole seam, mostly for practise and man do i need practise.
this is it welded up from the other side, quite neat dont you think?







Tother side is not so pretty! Started a bit rough and ready and improved. I had one major blow through (i stalled and sat in one place for some time), the initial line feed was a bit shit (jerky) but improved as time went on. I welded about 2" strips starting in the middle the far right, left, right, far left or something like that, anyways not working in the same area. Prepare to laugh!

First piece


Second piece


Third piece


Yeah, twas a little crap to start, i was too far away and i think too leaned. Certainly once i straightened up the torch and got a little closer things dramatically improved. I also had some gap filling to do where the two pieces where not the closest fit.

Now a question or two, as ever;
1) While welding i seemed to be getting short plumes of white fluffy stuff, what the hell is it?
2) How hot does galv have to be to melt and or how hot does the torch get? I seemed to be melting the galv if i rested the nozzle on the work piece (which also resulted in shite welds!)

On this occasion i protected the work bench by placing another piece of galv. I should be picking up a sheet of steel this weekend to use on the bench. Think its only 2mm which is mad as i should have grabbed a piece of 6mm from the scrap bin but at the time couldn't think of a use.

Anywhoo, i then grabbed the sanding wheel and dressed the back side (which i needed to be flat) and sprayed the bugger;







Perhaps some more practise would have done me some good, but i'm growing impatient! And hell at least these bits will never actually be seen!

Think i need some long reach mole grips before i start adding panels to the car!

[Philhod]

Oooooh dear. Can I make a few suggestions??

When your welding HV. you need to keep the gun head at 45 degrees to each face and about 80 degrees back from the direction of travel. This is quite important.
You have welded mostly on one side, it's only because the weld is more than double the size it needs to be that it has actually stuck.
Alternatively, with this position, welding off the job means you can set the job up so you weld in the V formed. where you can use the same technique as butt welding.

Turn the juice up a bit and move much faster along the joint. All this will cure the problems displayed.

And lastly, getting impatient is not a good idea because with all welding, the maxim is always.............

"Biggest hurry least speed."
All that said. You won't see this bit and welding first is the way 2 go.

The white bitz floating about are the galve burning and reacting with the ozone given off by the Argon you are using.
If you handle it, wash your hands before eating anything like butties or fruit.

as a rule of thumb the weld width should be 1 and a half times the thickness of the metal used.
Which will give you some idea of how much faster you need to go, I thought you had gone back to stick welding on some of that sorry.

[Vanny]

Oooooh dear. Can I make a few suggestions??

Well duh, if i didn't want suggestions i wouldn't show the pics

When your welding HV

When i'm welding what?

you need to keep the gun head at 45 degrees to each face and about 80 degrees back from the direction of travel. This is quite important.

Thats kind of where i ended up, BUT there was a gap between the two pieces, so perfectly 45 degree saw the welding wire fecking off between the gap, then catching, making a mess etc so i went more towards the big bit o metal.

You keep confusing me with the torch vertical angle too so i've made a pretty picture;



You say 80 degree in direction of travel which would be 'A' but previously you've said 'push' which in my mind is 'C', is this just a misunderstanding of the description or am i missing something.

Turn the juice up a bit and move much faster along the joint. All this will cure the problems displayed

Or more likely in my case lead to even more holes! Euro 38 torch is NOT for the winner

"Biggest hurry least speed."
All that said. You won't see this bit and welding first is the way 2 go.

Yeah, and thats why i'm doing it in slow pieces, but the stupid zinc not arriving has really fecked me off. I might tidy it up though as otherwise i'll go mad 'knowing'

Okays new question, what the hell do you do when you get to a tack? Go over, round , through, get to it and grind it off, make a decent job of tacking, make smaller tacks?

[Philhod]

Right OK. Welding positions

Flat butt is Downhand position DH.

T joint is Horizontal Vertical HV.

These welds can be in the Vertical up position V. ie an inside corner joint or butt joint

They can also be in the overhead position OH. ie. an inside corner or butt joint.

Other accepted joints are, an outside corner, again in all 3 positions.

A lap joint. As it says, an overlapped joint. which is welded just the same as a T. ie HV.

Good fabbing is the secret. no gaps on this thickness. When tacking keep the tacks very small if you have a small gap, tap it together as soon as you tack it it'll close up further as it cools. Keeping the tacks small allows you to weld straight through them later.
Torch positions. As you push the gun along it should lean back at between 75 to 85 degrees to the direction of travel and equidistant from your 2 sheets being welded. For example on a flat butt weld the sheets lie at 180 degrees ie a straight line.
So as well as leaning back you should be at 90 degrees the other plane.
This applies at whatever angle your material is at, your gun must be equidistant from each sheet or plate.
Think of it this way, the weld will go wherever you point it. make sure you are pointing it where you want it to go.
You need to practice going a lot faster, This will dramatically reduce the size of your weld and reduce the number of stops and starts.
The lean is back from the direction of travel.
The juice only needs to go up a bit (or one notch) and your new speed of travel will stop you making holes.
Try to keep the end of the gun shroud about 12-15 mm from the arc.
As I said small neat tacks allow you to go straight over.
You can get C shaped molegrip clamps about 100 mm across the C, that have a copper bolt in one end of the C so you can use it over the whole range, helps when tacking up.
Dont mess with the welded side. just clean it up a bit with the grinder. Any holes or gaps on the other side can be welded up, using your new faster technique

[mat_the_cat]

How hot does galv have to be to melt and or how hot does the torch get?

The zinc (if it's pure) will melt at 419.527°C to be exact...we use very pure zinc at work for calibrating thermometers!

On this occasion i protected the work bench by placing another piece of galv.

Would it be better using another metal other than steel to protect your workbench? So any splatter doesn't stick. Or are you just going to bin the protective sheet afterwards?
That's just reminded me of another tip that I've used - if you're blowing holes 'cos the metal is too thin, and you can't turn the current down any more, clamp a piece of ally behind the hole. That will act as a bit of a heat sink, and with it not being steel the weld won't stick but leave a nice flat surface on one side when you take it off. Phil will probably advise whether it's a good idea or not - there may be some good reason not to that I haven't though of, but it seems to work.

[Philhod]

Yes if the ally melts you get a bit of a bang...well a big bang actually use a thickish piece of copper instead and you can use it as a backing to fill larger gaps. The secret to not making holes is to move quicker...a lot, not just turn down the juice.
If you try aluminium welding you will see just how fast you can go.
If you watch that American hot rod programme on Quest at 7pm. You will get some idea of how quick you can work.

[Vanny]

Cheers Phil

I've updated the original post to include the correct picture.

Faster it is then. As i originally posted, the hole was caused by insuficient travel speed, ie there was none!

As for the fabbing, the problem i had was getting a small even bend on the short piece of the wing section. Any useful tips other than by a roller?

Mat, the plate is sacraficial as i can get more for a very low price so i'm not so worried. If its thick enough then i can tack jigs to it etc generally i find a decent flat steel surface great for welding on, if for the only reason that you can clamp the earth to the sheet and simply place the work piece on it.

[Philhod]

Now if I could do that I could do a lot less writing and not confuse people.
On your illustration, anywhere between B and even less than C is OK. B is fine on a flat downhand butt.
The other plane is correct, however the sheets should be tacked with the inside edges together, so they form a natural weld prep on the other side.
The best technique then is to tack inside with small tacks close together and weld the opposite side.
One of the reasons why you have gaps is that you are using the grinder and you can't cut an accurate inside radius with that, unless you leave surplus on all round and then grind it down with a round stone.
Funnily enuff they were using those big snips I was going on about, on that programme last night.
You should have seen the aluminium body they produced from what was basically a picture and a chasis frame.

[Bx Bandit]

Well I'm completely at the novice end as you know, but a lighter glass helped me, as, daft as it sounds, I couldn't properly see what was happening in the weld pool and as my eyes aren't the best then getting closer helped too.

Along with all the advice from Phil and Matt above, visit the Mig forum website as the videos will piece together all the advice from on here. They also have a big prep/spay painting section which is crammed full of useful info.

If it's any consolation Vanny, when I practiced gun position, my concentration wasn't on movement or distance from weld pool. When I concentrated on movement, my position went to shit etc. It took me a while to make that almost autonomous (and I self apply that word really loosely) connection between watching the weld and my movement, but my gun position needs much practice. Keep at it matey. Some of the welds on the TZD are awful. If it was one of the classics I would of cut it out and start again!