BXProject

[Father Ted]

I have often thought the bible (and all the rest) were just bollocks.

If it brings you comfort believing in them, then thats fine, but dont expect me to believe it (and fucking hell John Smith and your emerald glasses? I mean how the fuck did you pull that one off?) - I would like to think that there is more to life than our three score years and ten on the planet and that corporeal form and existance is only the start, I would like to think there is more in the universe,, otherwise its a shocking waste of space. After all what is life? Take a car apart and put it back together, you still have a car - take a cat apart and put it back together and what you have is a dead cat. So what is the bit that is life?

Wm Paley (Natural Theology, or Evidences of the Existence and Attributes of the Deity collected from the Appearances of Nature. 1802.) came up with the watchmaker theory, ie there must be a god because;
1. The complex inner workings of a watch necessitate an intelligent designer.
2. As with a watch, the complexity of X (a particular organ or organism, the structure of the solar system, life, the entire universe) necessitates a designer.

whereby the watch is an analogy for all living things - now this is fine if you want to believe that a watch is a watch and never gets any better or any worse. This obviously was at loggerheads with Darwins evolution of the species theorem. Even Darwin in later years still accepted the possibility of the existence of God but only because he could not explain the random occurrence of life itself ( starting with the simplest of single cell orgasms), but not as the creator of man and beast.
Richard Dawkins expanded on this somewhat and went on to demonstrate that through a series of very small changes, quite complex designs can be achieved. Kevin McCoud uses the grand design idea to demonstrate building techniques old and new in houses that I couldnt possibly ever afford.

What does it prove? Nothing save that religion is in my opinion a way of controlling the population. Does god exist? Personally I doubt he does. But like I said if that belief brings you comfort then thats fine, but FFS dont use it as a means to justify waging war on people thats just a shit excuse.

Fuck this is heavy stuff for sunday morning?

[Philhod]

I was brought up to believe that Sunday mornings were meant for the heavy stuff.

Going back to your designer, Well the one that designed us and the universe seems to have got stuck on a binary system. Everything seems to work that way.

Why, they even copied it for computers

[Vanny]

Now i don't believe the lies and propaganda in the bible, but to consider it 'bollocks' strikes me as a total lack of open mindedness. Just to bring it down to simple terms, all the little old dears that are as polite as punch, very friendly and usually firm believers in the bible and religion, they are worlds apart from the little scum bags growing up now with little or no repect for religion. In principle the bible is a method of controlling the masses, ok, thats a bit wrong, but then a lot of religion is, BUT the bible is a fucking good guide on how to lead a better life. I doubt any of the stories in the big book are actually true, but they show examples of choosing right over wrong, bringing it down to a simplified level.

I too was tortured with RC, but at the same time taught about many other religions, and they all have similar principles, control the masses and have the followers lead better lives. How that is subsequently misinterpreted i think we can all see, but the basic fact is those with religious following and belief hold a better sence of community and typically a better sence of right and wrong.

[Way2go]

You've written a good summary there Vanny! Respect was a good by-product that came out of religion and one that many youngsters of today don't practise without these teachings as parents today accede to almost every wish of the child.
However in this country there was a dark side caused by the class culture due to Ministers mainly being upper class and interested in control & maintaining the status quo. Fairness never seemed to be a high element in the creed. Even such works as charity to the poor was put over as something that they must be eternally grateful to the landed classes for.
So yes, a system from which some good came but with a heavy hidden agenda.

A persons belief in a Creator is also possible without them buying in to an established religion which is maybe how these other oddballs start like the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses as others link up with the vocal one.

However given an acceptance of a creator, there still is an unanswerable question of how he/she/it was created and this question would also continue ad infinitum.

[Father Ted]

Ah, you misunderstand me Vanny. When I say the bible and all therein is bollocks i mean I believe it is a fiction, or at the very least a pastiche of events.

Im not denying it as a guide book on how to lead a good life, as I said, if it brings you comfort thats fine, just dont ask me to believe in it.

[Philhod]

Ministers mainly being upper class

Not in my ultra socialist upbringing they weren't !

my mothers side were all either primitive or independent methodists and your president and minister could be Mr jones from No 2 down the street. Very fundamentalist !!
Both my aunty Nelly and uncle John were ministers and my cousin Christine still is.

My Nan was a catholic and my grandad a presbyterian, so my parents drifted off into Cof E to escape and I ended up as first a chorister then an alter boy.

All this means I got a clear insight into the various religious concepts and performances, gave me a more open, questioning position.

And taught me to stay well clear.

[Madcav]

Steady now fella, I'm a Royalist

i didnt know that you were a fan of the royal house of greek, german, dutch, spanish, and of course french and norman aristocracy that we have over here

Hey, the current crop were born in England and that's good enough for me Charlie boy. It's just a shame we don't have a modern day Edward 1st though

[docchevron132]

Ah, you misunderstand me Vanny. When I say the bible and all therein is bollocks i mean I believe it is a fiction, or at the very least a pastiche of events.

Im not denying it as a guide book on how to lead a good life, as I said, if it brings you comfort thats fine, just dont ask me to believe in it.

All that.

[charlie]

Just to bring it down to simple terms, all the little old dears that are as polite as punch, very friendly and usually firm believers in the bible and religion,

they are worlds apart from the little scum bags growing up now with little or no repect for religion.

BUT the bible is a fucking good guide on how to lead a better life. I doubt any of the stories in the big book are actually true, but they show examples of choosing right over wrong, bringing it down to a simplified level.

but the basic fact is those with religious following and belief hold a better sence of community and typically a better sence of right and wrong.

errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

and again

so that if an old biddies is polite and kind then it must be religion.
thats not right,surely
you dont have to be religious to be a decent human being and most of the old biddies i know arent interested in god and are good decent people

again with kids its too much of a stereotypical scenario
the assumption that because you have or havnt a religion has no bearing on whether that person is a scum bag or not
there are religious scum bag kids out there
look at northern ireland

the bible is a load of bollocks and you do not need the guilt ridden teachings of some mumbo jumbo bone rattlin twat to figure out, for ourselves, whats right and wrong
secular laws me thinks

a community spirit is all about caring and sharing and again this is what we people do all the time, its our second nature
that bitch thatcher, a christian, tried to tell us that there was no such thing as society
now as much as i think there is,
its misguided to think that somehow religion and being religious is the only way to build a community

[docchevron132]

Wow, this has gone REALLY theological!

[Vanny]

I did not state that it was the only way, we have a pretty good community here and i dont think anyone is particulalry religious if at all, i know i'm not. To simply denounce the importance of religion is rather blinded though. The analogy of oldies is an analogy, they grew up in different times, more stuctured and communal times, historically as a result of religion, party due to the religious warfare of the era.

Equally while the bible is blighted by guilt, guilt keeps people in check. These days social welfare benefits are handed out like candy and very few people turn it down because 'its the done thing' and is socially acceptable. Go back probably as little as 50 years and being on the dole was socially unacceptable, the general populous would try to avoid it through guilt. Guilt is what makes good people good. So erm, yeah rock on the bible and its evil ways if it motivates people.

I'm surprised at you Charlie, you usually bring a lot of construct to a debate like this.

[Madcav]

27 years ago being on the dole was fucking magic.

[Bx Bandit]

I'd say Vanny that it isn't (or rather it shouldn't be) guilt per se that keeps people in check, nor is it guilt that makes good people good. I would argue that it is a conscience and the willingness to do or be good that makes people good.

Guilt is an emotion to help prevent us from doing wrong things over again. The feeling of guilt therefore shows an understanding that what has been done is 'wrong' or unacceptable - not as judged by the bible or religion, but by the moral benchmarks we hold! So, guilt is more catalyst - for those with a conscience at least.

In the case of the bible being blighted with guilt and the guilt keeping people in check, then whilst you may well be correct, this is one of the problems I perceive with the Bible. Through belief in God/The Bible/Religion, guilt is associated with sin, a wrong doing in God's eyes. The guilt stems from dis-pleasing God rather than as a result of one's own moral code. The guilt keeps people in check through fear of God and having fear as a motivator is no good!

[Philhod]

as little as 50 years and being on the dole was socially unacceptable, the general populous would try to avoid it through guilt

50 years ago Vanny, it was not as much to do with guilt, it was more to do with eating.

An average wage for a tradesman then was £26 a week. The dole payment for the same period
just £ 6 yes that's six pounds.
Kids at my school just 2/3 years earlier, came to school with a jumper and shorts and socks,
no shoes, even in bad weather.
That wasn't guilt mate it was abject poverty.

Having fear as a motivator may not be good Bandit,.... but it works

[Way2go]

Principles were important in those days for the majority of the population but now the rot at the top is visible for all to see!

[docchevron132]

This is all very interesting.

See, I grew up with catholisism, it was forced down my throat from year dot.
My mother still judges everything I do by her religion, and as such, I'm told I'm going to burn in hell, which is ok by me, since it'll at least be warm. But since I dont believe in hell, or heaven, then I cannot go to either.

In terms of religion, you have to have faith, I have none, I need evidence, so I go with science.

As for moralism, I think the religion's just took the bits they wanted, the bits they could make use of for their own purposes.
Personally I prefer reading philosophers. Neitczhe (sp) for example wrote "Beyond Good and Evil" which to me says alot more about human behaviour and moral coding than any religion ever did.
It also questions what actually IS right and wrong.
One mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist and all that.
Morals are, like most everything else, man made. So we only have our own flawed ideaologies to determine right from wrong.
On the whole I think most people get it mostly right most of the time, I consider myself to be fairly moralistic on the whole, despite despising religion.

I always found it amusing as a kid on the alter (yes, I was forced to be an alter boy, although I did manage to avoid getting buggered by the mirade of catholic paedo priests) to look out at the crowd all of whom were uniformly apolagising for how awful they were.
Personally I think that does more harm than just accepting who you are, and changing what the individual feels they need to.

In short, I believe that anyone should be free to live however they so choose, as long as those choices do not have a negative impact on anyone else.
What we term negative I guess is as open to interpretation as what we deem to be morally ok though...

[Philhod]

Gosh! You took a deep breath before that one Doc.
Actually, I agree with every word. I put it once before in the words "I may not agree with what you say, but will fight to my last breath, for you to be allowed to say it"

Put in a practicle way it's like Bandit and his neighbours dogs etc, none of us would put people in his position.

[mat_the_cat]

Bandit and his neighbours dogs etc, none of us would put people in his position.

Doggy style? What's all that about then, is it a long running saga? I'm assuming they're noisy dogs? If so my neighbour breeds sheepdogs, and has a training aid which gives off a high frequency noise (uncomfortable for the dog but only just audible for humans) every time a dog barks. They soon learn to be quiet!

Back on (off?) topic, this is a very interesting thread - I don't know what is responsible for the moral decline in today's society, it's probably a combination of the above factors. I'm of the belief that you don't have to follow religion to be a 'good' person but as many religions place a high value on what is generally considered 'good' moral conduct, I think if you do follow one of the more mainstream religions, you are more likely to fall into the 'decent person' category. Not a hard and fast rule though by any means.

In short, I believe that anyone should be free to live however they so choose, as long as those choices do not have a negative impact on anyone else.

Exactly. If only life could be that simplistic!

[mnde]

In short, I believe that anyone should be free to live however they so choose, as long as those choices do not have a negative impact on anyone else.

Exactly. If only life could be that simplistic!

That guy Adolph was fooked then!

Mark.

[Bx Bandit]

Having fear as a motivator may not be good Bandit,.... but it works

I have no doubt it does mate, but it depends where the fear is coming from. Fear of starving unless you pull your socks up and get working I have no problem with, or fear that the fuckers next door should be feeling if they gave a damn (QED (fear/guilt of upsetting others that is)) but if it's fear of God then that's my life in my book!

Matt, is a long and drawn out saga with what started as noisy dogs (used to protect his birds of prey.....) and has ended, or rather, the current situation is that the puppy died, several birds have died, his ferrets stink and one of them got out and ate a £300 falcon chick, and his surviving chick sees all humans as Mummy and seems to have a sever separation anxiety that causes it to shriek/cry pretty much constantly for various periods of time. Just yesterday I hurt my voice box shouting 'shut up' many many times.

Anyway,

In short, I believe that anyone should be free to live however they so choose, as long as those choices do not have a negative impact on anyone else

Amen brother My sentiments exactly