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BrianK
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Re: Stationary BX 4x4

Post by BrianK » 11 Mar 2009

I have now heard from another 4x4 victim who has just got a degree in engineering but is feeling a bit iffy about doing the clutch because of what he's heard about disturbing splines. People are waiting. I've been promised a scrap gearbox and am pushing a slow man in Pangbourne for a scrapped transfer box so Philhod can take a look at them together on his bench.

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Re: Stationary BX 4x4

Post by docchevron132 » 11 Mar 2009

Ig he's only just got a degree then I dont blame him for being iffy about it!
Edumaction is a far different thing from the real world, as was proved when I bought a pug from an engineering graduate who couldn't work oput how to unseize the rear brakes, despite having tried for weeks.
Took me about 1 second with a big hammer..

I do wonder if it's less to do with disturbing the splines and more to do with the way they wear into eachother over time, thus ensuring they went back together exactley the same as they came out might get around that, although that would not be easy to do.
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Re: Stationary BX 4x4

Post by BrianK » 11 Mar 2009

The usual way of unseizing brakes for the non-technical ie those without a hammer was to drive backwards sharpish. But bangs with a hammer are often forgotten as a remedy, and work particularly well with things like fuel pumps, especially the late lamented SU electrical pump. If the man in Pangbourne (who is a retired rocket scientist with about eight 4x4s, I joke not) does not come up with something soon, I always have my own failed boxes which need to be dragged out of the car anyway.

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Re: Stationary BX 4x4

Post by Philhod » 11 Mar 2009

:lol: :lol: Unfortunately Brian, most graduates cover a wide range of theory in the discipline they have chosen and little or no practice.
This has been the norm in this country, historically. This does nothing for their confidence and certainly in mechanical circles, it's several years working with good tradesmen that gives them the experience they need.

The other bunch are people like me, who served a mechanical apprenticeship,from age 15, became one of those tradesmen, then went into higher education.
Although few of us went as far as a degree, the level of theoretical knowledge (and the maths to go with it) we have, coupled with the practical experience has most of my era, Teaching!!!
Our new competitors in the middle and far east have been quick to pick up on this and are putting many of their graduates through practical training.
Training their teachers is what I have ended up doing of late, which has led to some very nice foreign travel in my old age :wink:

I said earlier that I don't think it would make any difference where it goes back the spline design is too light to be affected that way.

The other point that Doc alluded to is, once you slide the transfer box off the main g/box
you would have to be extremely careful not to let the female end turn as I don't think there is enuff room to get your hand in to mark adjacent bitz with a marker pen, before it parts, notwithstanding the oily surface.

Provided it did not move you could acertain where it mated up by taking accurate measurements at datum points on the casings.
I've asked Doc if any of his sources know the actual material specification, if they do we could re manufacture the parts from a possibly more suitable one, improving the spline design / size at the same time [spam]
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Re: Stationary BX 4x4

Post by Way2go » 12 Mar 2009

[chin] If the weakness is this spline arrangement and if you still have a splines shaft that is not yet stripped, how about the following.

Grind a recess into the splined shaft that will take a Woodruff key. Grind or drill by devious means a blind longitudinal slot in the female bit to accomodate the woodruff key. Mate the 2 together and you have a shaft coupled by the splines and then the Woodruff to assist with preventing it jumping and stripping the splines? :D :?:
Last edited by Way2go on 12 Mar 2009, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Stationary BX 4x4

Post by Vanny » 12 Mar 2009

they move in and out of each other, making it hard to hold the key. If you constrain it it will wear, if you allow it to slide it will wear. Also you will get a single point load, or loss of load in a point (depending on the fitment), thus inducing transmission back lash i suspect. The problem is the size of the thing, its been made down to a size and hence the incredibly small splines to carry the rather large load. If someone can get me the dimensions i can probably math up the load in the splines, but the problem is likely wear rather than peak load.

Infact if i can get a better look see at one, and a better set of dimensions, i might be able to get some transmission folk to cast an eye. I wouldn't be surprised if quaiffe could come up with a solution.
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Re: Stationary BX 4x4

Post by Vanny » 12 Mar 2009

Oh, if you want a bomb proof drop in solution, this be it;

http://cgi.ebay.fr/boite-vitesse-5-de-c ... 240%3A1318" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Dangel and Ebay FTW, bit of a long way to go collect. And Dangel (like all shitty french companies) wotn be questioned and wont sell the part alone.
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Re: Stationary BX 4x4

Post by Philhod » 12 Mar 2009

I thought the later viscous coupling was made to fit the later HDI models g/box.

If this fits what has all the fuss been about????? I can see that new they are expensive at
about £800 but these have been available for about 7 years now, so there should be a ready supply in the Yards! :? :?
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Re: Stationary BX 4x4

Post by docchevron132 » 13 Mar 2009

Hadn't even thought about the Dangel TBH.
It will of course bolt straight on!
1989 BX 17TD P2 Hybrid
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Re: Stationary BX 4x4

Post by Vanny » 13 Mar 2009

Phil, your right to some extent. I know of at least two versions of the Dangel box, the earlier one was bolted to the 1.7TD XUD engine, so will happily fit a BE3 gearbox. The most recent (and by the look of it considerably harder) Dangel is for the HDi and wont fit the XUD engines because of the shape of some or more of it, as best i know. I've looked at them a lot, new you might be able to get hold of them for around €5.000, i've spoken to Dangel a bit by email and they pretty much said fuck off when i said i wanted to buy one, and i can't find a way to get one through Citroen (because Citroen have nothing to do with Dangel). Its a bit of a fucker really. But they have been knocking the BE3 box out for years, so you must be able to pick one up in France for a few notes.
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Re: Stationary BX 4x4

Post by docchevron132 » 13 Mar 2009

1989 BX 17TD P2 Hybrid
1990 BX 16V It's got big hairy bollocks
1971 BL 350FG ambulance
1993 Dennis Lance 132 It's got mahooosive hairy bollocks!


Euthenasia, because enough's enough already.

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Re: Stationary BX 4x4

Post by Philhod » 14 Mar 2009

8) 8) It's nice to have your decisions agreed with albeit by a design engineer [vomit]

I think all mechanical engineers will, after thinking up "cures", come up with..................


[chin] [chin] I think I'll come up with a better design and make new ones.

But getting the material spec right is a must :P
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Re: Stationary BX 4x4

Post by Vanny » 14 Mar 2009

is it the spec or the treatment that is the key? what about finding out what the pro's use? quiffe, zf, getrag etc actually i think i have a book with the specs in for some or more of the getrag shafts, tis in the uk though. suppose i might be able to find stuff from the transmission folks at denso.
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Re: Stationary BX 4x4

Post by Philhod » 14 Mar 2009

Both are important Vanny. I can do the heat treatment but the best material is crucial.

All of the "big boys" you mention will spec the optimum material at design. This will then be ameliorated first by engineering and secondly by the accountants.

The result is something that will do the job for a reasonable amount of time, ( or in this case, an unreasonable amount of time) :x

If you are going to re engineer a small part of the original, you can afford to use the best materials, as the difference in cost for a few off is very little 8)
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Re: Stationary BX 4x4

Post by Vanny » 15 Mar 2009

Is simply heat treating the best option? If i remember correctly Getrag use salt bath treating to impregnate the surface to achieve the hardness etc they require. I know there are places on the docks in liverpool/bootle that will do this sort of thing on a short run or one off basis so i suspect its reasonably easy to achieve?
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Re: Stationary BX 4x4

Post by Philhod » 15 Mar 2009

Saltz type treatments are usually used for "case hardening" softer mild and medium carbon steels.

It's also used on dural in the aircraft industry and completely useless for this type of component.

For gear sets and any situation where long term hardness and wear characteristics are a must,
You purchase ready "annealed" naturally hard materials There are several, which I listed earlier, that would do the job, chrome moly I think is too hard, moly van is about right but nickel steels are very tough and would stand more wear. Old fashioned cold chisels were made from this.

All these would have to be oil hardened from the correct temperature and then tempered off again using very accurate temperatures, but there's no secret to this, it's all in the book :wink:
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Now XBX And into HDI.....as well as other ...err.... things.

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Re: Stationary BX 4x4

Post by docchevron132 » 16 Mar 2009

But not in the Haynes!

Not getting far into finding out specs so far...
1989 BX 17TD P2 Hybrid
1990 BX 16V It's got big hairy bollocks
1971 BL 350FG ambulance
1993 Dennis Lance 132 It's got mahooosive hairy bollocks!


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Re: Stationary BX 4x4

Post by Philhod » 16 Mar 2009

:lol: :lol: [no] quite correct Doc defo not in Mr Haynes [no]

But fortunately the info's in my Blacksmiths companion and my engineers world year book..........


........For 1928 8) :lol: :lol: :lol:


Oh, and happy birthday you old cunt....

Only another 36 to catch me up......This meanz when your 65 I will be a sprightly ..........91 :roll:
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Re: Stationary BX 4x4

Post by BrianK » 12 Jun 2009

The BX 4x4 is back on the road and I have the truant gearbox and transfer box lying on the ground. Phil, shall I bring them up to your place?

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Re: Stationary BX 4x4

Post by Vanny » 13 Jun 2009

Hurrah, well done Brian, i know it was a bit of a labour of love, but now its done and you can enjoy it again!
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