BXProject

[Vanny]

In order to put the AC onto the car, it seems sensible to tackle as many jobs as possible before the expense of gassing up.One problem I know needs tackling is the usual rusted out inner wing, i thought before the start of the Brazilian GP i would take the front end apart and see whats what.

Well its mixed, not as bad as it could have been but worse than i had hoped;

First remove the air box, and the mounting plate, i did find the air box is smashed just below the AFM as well;



Then remove the bumper. The bail of green wire is for replacing the wiring to the headlights.



This is what i'm looking to resolve the slight bubbling of the metal in the corner of the inner wing;



The outer wing has never been removed before so the bolts where stuck pretty fast. As it is in its original position i thought i would measure and mark up exactly where the wing started. 20mm from the inner wing lip apparently;



Then remove the two bolts behind the front door, i had to use a UJ adapter to get them out as i can't fully open the door in the garage.



The dreaded spring clip, useless rusted away piece of rotten metal. In this case the tab from the inner wing failed, i simply cut the rest of the tab off, ground down the sides of the bolt, and used mole grips to twist and shatter the spring clip. I will have to make up a new bracket and weld it to the inner wing, but as the original tab is so weak i'm happy to do this.



More of a note for others, to disconnect the wing from the side skirt you need to remove the black plastic rivet at the bottom of the arch. You can see it in this picture pushed back into the hole;



A bit of scrapping and grinding and i have a rather large hole, smeg;



Bit of a close up of a panel under the inner wing, bit of a structural point me thinks, might not be a quick fix!



And finally the inner wing after a spot of grinding etc



Now, things to point out. I've found a reasonably quick way to remove the inner wing stone guard in large panels (set fire to it!!), so i'm almost tempted to remove the whole lot and replace it. Underneath the stone chip is painted and the stone ship is coming off without damaging the paint so definitely a possibility.

There is a lot of rust around the strut mount on the underside, it looks to be surface rust and none too worrying BUT i will take the strut out and have a damn good look. As i need to do the front arm bushes as well, i think i will set about removing the whole hub etc and perhaps change other parts at the same time.

Well plenty to do over the winter, rather jumping in with both feet, but hopefully i can get it down over the winter and have the car fit and ready by Easter.

[docchevron132]

All the usual favorite places then!
Shall I bring some genuine Citroën tin along with some aerosnips?
Could be worse, not as bad as my shit box turned out to be..

You'll want to removing the ABS hydro block complete though!

[Vanny]

Thats what i was calling about earlier, should i remove the ABS unit with the short pipes attached or disconnect the pipes at the pump.

In the end i bagged for removing the pump and the pipes together, they all came apart without any problems!

Yes some tin would be good. If you still have that white scrapper at the farm then i might need some bits and bobs (gromets, washers etc). I'll also be asking for some pointers at the meal as well, i'm reasonably confident but will take as much help as i can!

Next step might well be to overhaul the welder, needs new tip and decent liner (which i have), its also not been used for over a year so might need warming up and firing at full heat to get things running.

========================================================

Now i do have one big question, what do i need to do to replace the front slam panel? I don't need to remove the front crash structure, only the bit the headlights clip into and the cross member the bonnet sits on. Do i need to put in a cross brace between the inner wings before i start? i was thinking 1" angle bolted to the inner wing where the outer wing bolts in?

As its spotted into place i propose to grind the spot welds out rather than drill then, but will this cause me alignment difficulties later? I intend to disconnect the struts both sides and support the whole front sub frame fully while i do the job, this should minimise vertical strian on the inner wings and thus front of the car, is this enough or should i be looking to support else where?

[Vanny]

Also i could do with advice on stopping this happening again. What costing should i be looking at in terms of primer, top coat and stone chip? Can it all be done successfully from a rattle can? I have access to most of these things cheap or better.

Am i best with Citroen tin repairs, or new steel? I guess potentially this could be galv? Any idea what the thickness is so i can practise off the car?

[docchevron132]

Ok, I'll come back and answer that lot in a while, I've gotta shoot to the pub to meet Tim, who I only get to see once a year...

But in short, the white scrapper is still at the farm, complete bar interior, there are also a few more scrappers, you're welcome to anything you need.

Galvy steel is always perferable really, thats why I hack good bits out of BX's and use them! It's free and the right thickness!

You really shouldn't need to brace it, I've never braced any that I've arsed about with, even after some fairly large frontal impacts.

Do you need the panels? If so I can hack them out of a car for you.

Drilling is easier, if you have the proper spot weld drill bits!
You'll also really want a proper spot weld tip if you're MiGging the thing back together.

Pair of stands at the arse end of the subframe where it bolts to the floorpan will be fine dude.

Rattle cans ok for a top coat, I tend to use weld through primer, xinc rich primer, red oxide (oil based) a couple of undersoats and a couple of top coats, TBH, I brushed the inner wings and stuff on mine, looks ok for me, but you'll always geta better finish with spraying, especially if it's prepped right, the ambient temp is ok and you dont empty the whole tin in one go!

I believe the thickness is 2mm from memory, although the headlamp bits are about a micron thick I think!

[Vanny]

Just to jog your memory, thanks to Mr The DLM i managed to score a brand new panel off eBay so that should do the trick.

I can get as many 2mm plates in galve as i can fit in the boot of the focus, so that might be the way to go?

As for welding it back up, i was simply going to plug weld like this;

http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/plug-weld.htm

Beyond the fact that it is something i've done before, it also looks like it should go down pretty well for my level of ability. I think i'll need a lot mor clamps etc as well, think Aldi have some in so might go shoppin tomorrow. Just need some scrap to practise on, shall give uncle a call tomorrow.

found this guide on spot welding with a mig

http://www.esabna.com/EUWeb/MIG_handbook/592mig11_1.htm


I guess the special spot welding tool is just the shroud, something like this;

http://www.thewelderswarehouse.com/Weld ... pe_15.html

[Bx Bandit]

I wouldn't of thought a brace would needed either but it can't do any harm if you're not sure.

I've always used Red Oxide primer, if you get the Halfrauds one it dries very quickly which can be handy but by the middle of the tin you have to add some thinners cos it evaporates from the tin pretty quickly. You don't need Halfrauds thinners as they claim as cellulose thinners does the job. White spirit won't though. The International red oxide is white spirit based but takes longer to dry. IIRC, it was lead in Red Oxide that had the anti corrosive properties but of course lead ain't allowed.... Zinc is probably your best bet.

The Waxoyl brand of stone chip in a rattle can is good. Dries to a dark graphite black and pretty easy to spray. Better stuff is the under body sealant. It's very thick and stays much more flexible than stonechip BUT it stays a little sticky and can get on your clothes. I've used stone chip on the sills but everywhere else I've plastered in this sealant stuff. You can trowel it on if you want to!

I've used top coat rattle cans, mostly just to spot treat and keep the rust at bay but eventually I'll rub the whole panel down and spray with a compressor and air gun. It's really the wrong time of year to spray paint mind so if you really need to have a heater on in the garage all day to try and prevent the blooming.
You can borrow the compressor and gun if you like but not till I've done my bit of spraying!!!!

You may as well waxoyl the fuck out the car whilst you're there. I have the manual pump thingy you can screw into the big cans, again yours to use mate if you need to but it's a stoopidly messy job.

Back on the rattle cans, keep them indoors and stick them in a sink of warm water for 1/2 and hour.

i use Granville rust treatment which I think is the same stuff as Kurust except Granville is used by the MOD

[docchevron132]

For Red Oxide, the only one to use these days is the Gliddens effort, oil based, doesn't evaporate and actually works, has corosion inhibitors too.
I've used several hundred gallons ont he bus!

Thats the shroud vanny, TBH you can use a standard shroud, I have before now, but the spot weld shroud does allow one to turn the wick up ALOT stuff the torch over the hole and let rip.
Short sharp blast and it's all good!

Forgot about the new panel, sorry dude, it was a while a go, and my memory is wank.

If you can get free galv sheet then yes, grab it!

[Philhod]

I would use not less than 1.5 mil Vanny. clean as much rust off the original bodywork as you can then paint it with rust killer, then paint over with primer.
Then make a sandwich following the lip on the outer side if the inner wing and an L shaped piece on the inside, in both cases going 50mm into good metal. You may have to fab these in sections and weld together first.
I personally would stiffen the assembly, just tack your piece across where the flat bit is behind and below the h/lights and grind off after.

All this will fuck yer crumple zone up a treat and make a right bollox of anyone who runs into you If you want it superstrong you can drill through one side at the bottom where the curve is and spot weld.
As Doc said use Cit bits for the front and strip everything out first.
Once you have welded everything and used that giddens stuff, I would have thought shakey shakey stuff would do.

Bandit wrote: "it's a stoopidly messy job" True, but well worth it.

[Bx Bandit]

Giddens eh! Where can one purchase said primer or is Zinc rich better anyway?

[Vanny]

Phil, you kind of lost me at sandwich nom nom nom.

Are you talking about just the wing? Given that the inner wings dont stictly form part of the crash structure, and the frontal crash is based on 40% overlay, i think it will actually aid the crash structure by turning impact onto the buckle zone on the chassis rail.

There isn't a lot of just on the body work, but a quick skim with the wire brush shows it is super super thin. 50mm into good steel sounds good to me, and fits with my idea of what is needed.

I personally would stiffen the assembly, just tack your piece across where the flat bit is behind and below the h/lights and grind off after.

This is a bit i'm not sure about. mostly the grind off after bit.

Took me a while to figure out what 'shakey shakey' was, rattle can i assume.

[docchevron132]

Shakey shakey would be the rattle can yes.

The grindy bit off after means just that, if you tack a piece of angle or wotnot across the wong structure, then after you've glued the new bit in, just grind the welds off around the angle and remove like.

Personally, I wouldn't bother, unless the car's had a bang int he front, it wont move, even more so since you're not removing all the strength from the front end.

BTW, why has your valver got TD type cooling fans?

[Vanny]

My valver has a 405 cooling loom, totally seperate wiring from the rest of the car, gives only max speed, and runs on with ignition off, it also has a direct (relay) control for AC connection. I chose to fit seperate fans (instead of the dual fan) as it give more blower performance (longer vains) and less air flow restriction (bigger gaps between blades).

Will have to investigate this Giddens stuff, but i would also like to ask the same question as bandito

[Philhod]

By a "sandwich", I meant, don't cut the original away. Grind it, treat it, then make 2 patches,
one each side, the outer one will only have the lip turn over 12/15 mill, the inner one you can vary depending how far the rot has gone.

You are better fabbing both patches from 2 pieces and welding them before assembly, it's stronger and a lot easier unless you are a skilled tin basher,
The only time I've used Giddens, (I thought it was Giddings, never read it properly) was because it's red and it was a red car.
I usually use liquid galv paint on all metalwork, we used it where we had ground galv off to weld.
No primer req'd just brush or spray on after the weld has cooled.

Patches like these strengthen the whole structure Vanny, as you've added metal.
OH. Just remembered. When doing the inner patch you need to stop 12 mill short so that your side and flat don't form an L, then weld a strip between them. This is to allow for the radius on the original metalwork.

[Vanny]

OH. Just remembered. When doing the inner patch you need to stop 12 mill short so that your side and flat don't form an L, then weld a strip between them. This is to allow for the radius on the original metalwork.

Gotcha, that would have been the first mistake i'd have made!

Patches like these strengthen the whole structure Vanny, as you've added metal.

Well aware of the mechanics, but on the grand scale of things (crash structure wise) it really isn't going to make that much difference.

You are better fabbing both patches from 2 pieces and welding them before assembly, it's stronger and a lot easier unless you are a skilled tin basher

No i'm not, and that seems like a pretty sensible suggestion to me.

I usually use liquid galv paint on all metalwork

This is what i will be doing as thats what my uncle can get me for free, along with galv sheet. And yes i'm aware of what happenes when you weld galv, bad ju ju

[Philhod]

Yep and bad weld as well even if your very good. run the grinder over the edges to be welded first.
Once you go molten any galv left, heads away from the weld. If you don't, it mixes in and err goes very brittle! + the smoke is poissonous
that's a bit fishy

[docchevron132]

Does have a certain charm to the smell though!
And you can get quite high before death kicks in!

[Philhod]

It's not really trhe poisonous aspect that kills. You would have to breathe an awful lot in, over a long time for trhat to occur.
What it does is reduce the amount of oxygen in your immediate area, to under 6%.
This means you err....drown really. A bit like those adverts for smoke alarms on tv at the moment.

You can also get the same syptoms as someone who has nearly drowned and been resussitated.
You can get secondary drowning a number of hours later.

[jonathan_dyane]

It's not really trhe poisonous aspect that kills. You would have to breathe an awful lot in, over a long time for trhat to occur.
What it does is reduce the amount of oxygen in your immediate area, to under 6%.
This means you err....drown really. A bit like those adverts for smoke alarms on tv at the moment.

You can also get the same syptoms as someone who has nearly drowned and been resussitated.
You can get secondary drowning a number of hours later.

God, that makes sense, I remember welding up a Dyane chassis using galv sheet I liberated from a skip, and reaching the point when I felt rather like death and had to spend a good half hour sitting on the ground in the open air recovering

[Philhod]

Yes, you need to take precautions. DON'T wear a mask! If you are inside get near a door, either in or out weld 10 mins move away 5. drink water. The main one, gently grind it off 1/2" either side of the weld before you start. It will give you a much stronger weld and reduce the fumes by upwards of 50%.
Obvoiusly don't grind off any from a side you will not be able to get at afterwards.